Kevin Amolsch - Hard Money Lender Raises $135 Million
LISTEN TO THE FULL EPISODE ON:
Kevin Amolsch is a successful real estate investor and private money lender. He originally served in the US Army for 4 years, earned a degree in Finance, and worked as a Mortgage Bond Analyst with Wall Street for 2 years. He founded Pine Financial Group in 2008, has raised $135M in private capital in 4 funds and has helped to close on over 2,400 transactions as a buyer, seller or private money lender. His company is approaching almost $1 Billion in fundings. He's also the author of "The 45 Day Investor", is a frequent speaker, and is host of "Real Estate Educators Podcast".
In this episode hosted by Mike Swenson, we discussed:
- Hear Kevin's real estate investing success story that will inspire and motivate you to take action.
- Understand the importance of having a strong why in real estate investing and how it can drive your success.
- Explore the potential risks in the commercial real estate sector and gain insights on how to mitigate them.
- Learn about loan to value ratios in real estate financing and how they can impact your investment decisions.
- Gain an understanding of the impact of real estate investing on personal lives and how it can create wealth and financial freedom.
The key moments in this episode are:
00:00:05 - Introduction
00:01:23 - Kevin's Background and Passion for Real Estate
00:03:12 - Transition from First Property to Building a $130 Million Fund
00:05:43 - The Reality of Raising Capital
00:06:57 - Building Relationships and the Importance of Credibility
00:11:50 - Debt Fund Structure
00:13:02 - Property Types for Pine Financial
00:14:04 - Concerns in the Commercial Space
00:17:53 - Financing Options for Property Purchases
00:24:18 - The Power of a Strong Why
00:25:11 - Embracing Challenges
00:26:33 - Navigating the Current Economic Climate
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Minnesota Real Estate
Read the full transcript here:
Mike Swenson
Welcome to the REL Freedom Show, where we inspire you to pursue your passion to gain time and financial freedom through opportunities in real estate. I'm your host, Mike Swenson.
Kevin Amolsch
Let's get some REL Freedom together.
Mike Swenson
Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of REL Freedom. Talking about building time and financial freedom through opportunities in real estate. I'm super excited today because we have an amazing episode. We are here with Kevin Amolsch. Kevin's been an investor for 20 plus years. He formed Pine Financial Group back in 2008. Previous to that, had a degree in finance, also served in the US. Army. So thank you so much for your service there. Worked in Wall Street and then now you're doing lending. And so we'll talk a lot about that, a lot about the investor space, 2400 transactions that you've helped with as buyer, seller, or lender. And you have forked funds totaling $130,000,000 in private capital. Also the author of the 45 Day Investor and a lot of other cool stuff that we will get into in the episode. So thanks Kevin, for coming on the show.
Kevin Amolsch
What an intro. Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to be here.
Mike Swenson
Well, yeah, why don't you just go ahead and give us a little bit of that background, set the stage know, on our podcast, we really want people to see and hear different stories of how people have found success in real estate. And we know people are wired different ways, passionate in different areas. And so that's why I really love to share people's stories of kind of their origin story of how they got where they're at, because I want somebody to listen to this episode now or in the future and be like, oh, Kevin came from that background and did that. I want to do that too.
Kevin Amolsch
Awesome. So when I was really young, we were lower middle class. We didn't have a lot of money. So all my friends, they would have more Christmas presents than I would, for example, or they would get the new bicycle, and I didn't have that, but I wanted all that, of course. So I was always thinking, like, how can I make money? How can I have what my friends have when my family can't provide that? So then I would start doing like a lot of us, right? We mow lawns, we shovel snow, we start our own little businesses. I was selling candy at the school, and then I went into the army and I started reading books about investing. Like, how can I invest this money that I'm making while I'm in the military? And everything was pointing to real estate. So I bought my first house. It sounded like a great idea. Moved into it, lived there for two years, did the whole house hack thing before that was even a term, moved out of it and kept it as a rental and that I was getting money from appreciation I was getting tax benefits, which I didn't have a lot of income. I didn't necessarily need that. But I saw that on my tax returns. I saw the cash flow and I saw that, look, this tenant, this tenant is paying my mortgage off for me. I mean, they're doing that. So that's when I realized that real estate is more to me more than just an investment. It's a fantastic investment. I know a lot of your clients do that more on the passive side. I wanted to turn it into a career like you. So I got into real estate as a career. After that very first rental, I just knew that was the vehicle that was going to make me rich.
Mike Swenson
What was your next step from there after having that first property to now having $130,000,000 in funding to do that? So how does that start? Because I know for a lot of people, especially people on the lending side, even for me, working with investors, it's hard to see how do you grow that?
Kevin Amolsch
It's very interesting because that very first rental property and that very first tenant was my very first eviction. And that was the worst eviction I've had in all my 20 years in the business. And I made some gigantic mistakes with that first one. Sometimes I'll get interviewed on a podcast like this and they'll ask me, how do you go through that experience and stay in the business? But it's all about your drive and your passion, right? And I wanted what my friends had. I mean, I was still that kid, so I got through that. But how did I go from that rental property, that eviction to $130,000,000 fund? Well, I started buying a property or two every single month while I was in school and I had a part time job. I couldn't do that with down payments in the very traditional way that people buy properties. I had to find a way to do it with no money. So I learned owner carry, I learned lease options, I learned different creative financing strategies. And that's how I was able to buy one or two houses a month. But here's where it gets to the fund. I fell in love with the finance side of real estate because I understood from my creative financing background that the financing side of real estate has everything to do with the deal structure. So we talk about going out and hunting for the deal, hunting for the project, wanting to buy that investment and finding it. That's the fun part of the business. Well, when you're making an offer to a seller or you're negotiating with a seller of a property, how you're going to fund it, where that money is coming from has everything to do with how you negotiate, how you present the offer, how you're going to come up with the offer in the contract, how you write it in. So I fell in love with the financing side. So I just started lending money out and it was very traditional at first, and that sucked. It was really hard. Traditional mortgage banking, mortgage brokering. So I was like, I don't have any control here. I don't know how anybody operates a business when they don't have control over decision making and that kind of thing. So I just started raising private money because when I have control of the capital, I can make smart, common sense decisions. I don't have to stay inside of a little box. Look, their default rate is way higher than mine because they don't look at how am I going to get paid back. They say, these are the guidelines we have to hit, and if we hit those, I'm going to do the loan even if it's a terrible borrower or a terrible project, right? So we could look at the entire picture, make good, solid decisions, and help real estate investors with their projects. And I guess that's a real fast way through how I got to where.
Mike Swenson
I am today in terms of raising that capital. I talk with people all the time and they want kind of the easy button of like, oh, I've got this property. I'm just going to magically have this person come out of the sky, give me the money, and I'm going to pay them back and never see them. Yeah, I think that's the ideal situation if they want. But how does that work in real life in terms of raising capital and being responsible for people's money?
Kevin Amolsch
Mike, I'm so glad you asked that question because we hear a lot of the gurus out there, or when you get on the forums, like on bigger pockets or something, you'll see, hey, if you find a great deal, the money will find you. We hear that. We see it all the time. That is absolutely not true, and you're describing it perfectly. Just because you have a good deal does not mean the money is just going to be attracted to you. I think you need to find money first. Personally, I think you should always be trying to find different sources of capital. And if you're looking at private money and that's how you want to fund your real estate transactions, you need to be out there networking, talking to people. When you start talking about private capital, your credibility is far more important than your cash or your credit. They want to know that you have the ability to pay them back. So as long as you could sell that story, you'll be able to get the projects funded.
Mike Swenson
And I think the thing that most people don't realize, and I alluded to it, is you're building relationships with people. You're wanting that person to continue to invest money with you. And so you have to do a good job with it. If you don't pay them back or if you have a problem paying them back, and have issues, they're not going to want to lend to you again. It's how much less expensive to retain an existing customer versus finding a new customer. That investor is your current customer. And so you've got to make them happy. You've got to create wins for them. And you also have to look them in the eye and tell them what's happening with their money. And I think sometimes people like you mentioned, find the right deal, the money will find you. You also have to look that person in the eye and tell them how their money is doing. And for me, take that responsibility really important. And so I want to make sure I'm being a good steward of their resources.
Kevin Amolsch
Yeah, it's interesting that you bring that up, because in our business, it's just the nature of our business. We don't take a lot of losses, we don't take a lot of defaults. We're not doing a syndication and we're not subject to big market fluctuations. So I don't get this opportunity very often. But when something does go wrong, like you're describing, and you're not able to maybe return the money, or it's going to come a little slower than they thought, that, Mike, is when I've raised the most money. Because when you can be transparent about that and you pick up the phone and you just call them and walk them through exactly the mistakes you made and this is where we're at. There's a sense of comfort there. It seems the biggest risk with lending money in this industry is fraud. I would much rather invest in someone's project and it go bad and me lose money that way than investors, people that I don't trust. Right.
Mike Swenson
So when you're finding money from people, how much are people giving? How has that grown over time? I'm just kind of curious. Are people writing big checks? Is that small checks that grow a little bit larger as you prove yourself? Or how has that grown over time?
Kevin Amolsch
Yeah, so we have investors all the way from $10,000 up to like 17 million. So we have a pretty wide range here. We really do like to work with everybody. So when we structure our funds, we structure them so we could take accredited and non accredited investors. A lot of the funds out there are accredited investors only, which is super restrictive. Right. If you don't qualify for an accredited investor, which is a million dollars in net worth, exclusive of your house, or a high income level, 200,000 single, 300,000 with a spouse. So it's pretty hard to hit that for some people. And if you don't hit that, you don't have opportunities like this. So we've decided that every fund we have, we are going to allow non accredited investors in it. Now, it's a little bit trickier when working with the SEC because they're more strict around that. So we have more reporting, we have audited financials, we have all of that, but yeah, that's the range, 10,000 all the way up.
Mike Swenson
And you mentioned you have four different funds. How did those different funds work?
Kevin Amolsch
Yeah, so it's interesting. So you learn something with every deal you do, right? So that first fund was in 2009 and we created that fund because the feedback was we want liquidity, we want diversification and we want smaller investment amounts. So I had three objections I had to overcome, and by creating a fund, I was able to overcome all three. Now people were investing in my fund, but the mistake I made is I didn't charge any management fees. So now the only way I was making money was charging fees to my borrowers for origination and then everything was going to the investors, which was great for them, but I was learning that it was not so easy to manage that money and then I deserved to get paid for that. So we still have that fund, but we closed it down to new investments and we started our second fund. And then we hit a non accredited investor limit by the SEC. There's 35 and different types of offerings have different rules, but this one is a 35 non accredited investor limit. We hit that, we had to start another one and it got better. Like, each fund got better. And then we said, well, why don't we do like a public fund so we could advertise for these investors and we could help more people. We won't be limited to 35 non accredited, we could have unlimited so we went a reg, a route, which is all that means is that it's public. So that's where we get into extensive reporting. Our attorneys are on the phone with the regulators frequently, we have audited financials, we have all of that stuff that you would get with a public company simply so we could help more people and advertise.
Mike Swenson
And what would be the thought process of doing a fund like that? Or maybe just explain the difference between doing a fund versus investing in a particular building, let's just say like 100 unit apartment complex or something like that. Why did you choose to kind of go the fund route versus a specific project?
Kevin Amolsch
Yes, when you start talking about individual assets like that, then we're starting to get into syndications. So when you have syndications, here's some of the downfalls to it. I invest in a lot of syndications, so I'm not saying that they're bad, they can be very good actually, but they can be bad also because I've invested in probably 15 or so, I'm still in five now. And of the five, only two are performing as expected, three of them are not. And two of those three had capital calls, which means I had to inject more capital into the project. So in the debt fund like we're in, where we make loans to real estate, into real estate, we don't have capital calls. That just can't happen. Our velocity is going too quickly. And if we need to not do a deal, then we just say no to a specific loan because we don't have the money, right? We don't have taxes to pay on a property or something like that. So I like the way we do it. And we're diversified, right? If you're invested in a single asset, you're not diversified at all. But there's upside. I mean, you get the tax benefits of owning a piece of the property. If there's a swing in the market and the value goes up, you get to participate in that as well. So you could have higher returns in the syndication type deal. It's just when you're talking about investing in one specific asset, it can be a little bit riskier.
Mike Swenson
And you mentioned the goals of your fund. What types of properties really make the most sense for Pine Financial?
Kevin Amolsch
Yeah, so we stay pretty diversified and we do both commercial and residential. My background is in residential. I feel very comfortable there. It's more liquid. It's easier to rent out. You don't have long vacancies. So I've chosen to take the portfolio and do 80% resi and 20% commercial. That way we can keep some diversification there. The residential side both is all value add. So on the residential side, it's all fix and flip. Some new construction infill new construction projects. But it's quick turn, right? We want our money out and back. Out and back. That helps keep us safe as well. And then on the commercial side, it's all repositioning. So think about we're hearing a lot about office conversions. I'm not seeing a lot of that. I keep reading about it, but I haven't seen a lot of that. Seen a lot of like we're doing big box and they're chopping it up into smaller retail centers and that kind of thing. We're seeing malls being converted to storage, but so anywhere you can add value to a commercial, we're doing the bridge financing on that.
Mike Swenson
I was curious to hear your thoughts on the commercial environment right now because I know there's a lot of uncertainty. But with people working from home, with things changing with such a demand for residential housing and a housing shortage, what's your take on the commercial space?
Kevin Amolsch
I got to tell you, I'm a little nervous, Mike, because we have 1.5 ish trillion dollars of commercial debt coming due in the next two years. Well, actually 18 months. That's a lot. That's almost half of all the loans that are out there coming due so quickly. And the problem with these loans come into maturity is they can't refinance because they don't qualify anymore with the debt coverage ratio. So banks qualify commercial loans based on the asset's performance, not the borrower's performance. So the asset itself has to produce cash to pay off the debt. And so the ratios are usually 120. So 1.2 or 1.25. So that there's 120% of what's needed to pay the debt is what's being generated net from the property. Well, that was great at a 4% interest rate, but now you're at six and a half or seven on the commercial space. Those aren't covering. The ratios are not covering anymore. The property does not produce enough money to pay those higher interest rates. So what's going to happen when you have all of these maturities coming due and they don't qualify for modifications or extensions or refinances? So I think that's going to be a big problem. And worst case, we're going to start seeing either the banks writing loans that are much below lower interest rates, maybe even than they're paying depositors, and then that's how the savings and loans crisis happened. The depositors were getting paid too much. So you can't bring in money at five and loan it out at four. Right. That's a recipe for a bankruptcy. So it's either that or we're going to start seeing defaults and they're going to have to get these assets off of their books. So I'm really concerned with the loan maturities, but gosh beyond that. You are starting to see defaults, you're starting to see syndications. Like we were just talking about, they're turning keys back. Right. They're starting to sign over properties, high rise office, and a lot of apartment buildings. I could just keep going. I'm sorry. I know we got a short.
Mike Swenson
No, this is good, this is good. I love it.
Kevin Amolsch
There's a problem in banking, too. I just read a report that there's 189 banks in the United States that are at risk of going out of business because their non insured depositor deposits are too high. They have too much non insured deposits. So if you think about the FDIC, so they're going to insure you up to $250,000 in an account, right? So you're good up until that. If the bank gets in trouble, the government bails them out. But above that, the government's not supposed to bail them out. The depositor can lose that money. It really is at risk. And for those 189 banks, for example, if we were to catch wind on which banks those were, which it's not being disclosed, my guess is there would be a run on that bank. Right. Everybody would want to get their money out, especially those non insured deposits, and that will accelerate the collapse in the banking system.
Mike Swenson
Great. Happy news all around.
Kevin Amolsch
Sorry. No, this affects commercial because back to your question, because we don't have the Fannie and Freddie, except for the multifamily, you do have it there, but in the office, in industrial and retail, you don't have these government backed loans. These are all regional banks that are making these loans. So if we start seeing a collapse in the banking system, you're not going to have money for people to buy these assets. So if there's no buyers, what does that mean? That's a collapse, right? That's going to be a collapse in value. So there's some concern here. Residential, I put in a whole separate category because I think that that's somewhat insulated.
Mike Swenson
So if I was an individual looking for financing and I was to come to you, what types of projects are you looking at or what are some of those numbers? You mentioned DSCR loans and those ratios, but we've also got people that maybe haven't worked in the fix and flip space that much or don't know how all those numbers work. Talk through what are some products that you have where you can really help out somebody looking to purchase a property.
Kevin Amolsch
So the DSCR, that's really on cash flowing assets. So if it's a long term financing, you're going to run into that ratio. For us, we don't have that. We don't care if the property is producing cash because our loans are so short term that you're going to pay us back by either refinancing it or selling it. So we don't care so much about a DSer ratio. What we care about is loan to value. And we're talking about a loan to after repaired value on the residential side. So 70% of ARV after repaired value is what we're looking at. And we don't have a loan to cost ratio, at least not right now. That could change with the environment, but right now it's 100% loan to cost, 70% loan to ARV value. So if you're finding a good solid fix and flip strong numbers, we could potentially finance all the purchase, all the construction and all your closing costs. So it could literally be a no money down deal, but we cap it again at the 70% of ARV. Now, on the commercial side, we're looking for a little bit stronger guarantor, so we're a higher net worth, higher liquidity. We don't have necessarily a loan to cost ratio on that one, although every deal is a little bit different. But we definitely have a loan to value and it's a stabilized value. So whatever the banks, the banking world would consider stabilized, 92, 93, 94% occupied, something like that, different asset classes will have different ratios, but once we hit that stable, what is that worth at that point? And we're going to go 65% of that number.
Mike Swenson
For people then that aren't familiar with the ARV, like you mentioned, you're really looking at value add properties and so that after repair value, you want to see a big growth between where they buy it at and what they can sell it for after those repair costs. And it could be, like you said, they could get it for zero cash out of pocket. Or if it's maybe not quite as good of a deal, they're going to have to put some money in. But you're looking to be able to get the property, fix it up, turn it and have that quick turnaround so that you can get your money back and go invest it somewhere else.
Kevin Amolsch
Yeah, exactly. I mean, we're not cheap, right? I mean, we're hard money. The industry is trying to get that term out of the industry. They're trying to call it private money or something. But it's been hard money for the last 20 years as far as I'm concerned. So it's hard money, it's expensive. You don't want to pay those high rates very long, right? You want to get in and out as quickly as possible and that's how you make more money.
Mike Swenson
So for those higher rates, you offer a little bit more convenience, you have less restrictions. As long as it fits in that box, you're willing to loan on that. Versus if I went to XYZ Big National Bank, they're probably going to say, go kick rocks. If I brought that proposal to them, you're going to say, yeah, let's do it. And so the benefit of working with you is you're funding deals that a lot of these big banks wouldn't even look at.
Kevin Amolsch
That's why we're a bridge, right? So you've heard the Burr strategy, the buy, rehab, rent, refinance, repeat, that whole thing. Fantastic strategy. The way that works the best is if you never put a dime into the property. So if you could bring in someone like me and finance 100% of it or as close to that as possible, get it cash flowing and then the bank wants it right? Now it's habitable. Now you got a tenant in there, now they're comfortable with it, then you refinance it and you pay me off. So really your only down payment, if there is one, is on that very initial purchase. Because on the refinance, they roll all those costs into the loan. So that's how you can get into properties with very little or no money down and have a 30 year fixed very turnkey after you go through the work. I mean, you got to find the project and do the work, but then you have that turnkey, long term rental.
Mike Swenson
How does that work on the ARV? Are you essentially projecting that out based on the plan at the time of the purchase? And then what happens if that changes from the actual work that happens and that ARV doesn't come out quite as what you thought it was going to be?
Kevin Amolsch
That's funny because it does change. And even though we say don't change your plan because everything's based on your plan, it does change, but normally for the better. So give you an example. A lot of times people will say, well, I'm not going to finish the basement because I can't get the value out of it. It's very rare that you'll get the value out of a finished basement on the sell side. So if you're going to flip it, but if you add a bedroom down there, you could rent it for more. So you're adding more rental value. So let's say you're going to flip it and then, okay, now I want to keep it as a rental. Well, maybe I'm going to do little bit less high end finishes, and I'm going to use that money to finish a basement. So that changes the entire plan. But I'll tell you, it also adds a lot more value to it, right? Because you don't get the value for the cost, but you do get value for your appraisal. Does that make sense? What I'm saying? You get value for it, but it's very rare that it equals what it costs you to do it. The answer to your question is, yeah, we base it on your plan and what it's comped to. So you say you're going to do this level of finish, granite, stainless steel, whatever. We're going to pull comps with fully remodeled properties, and that's what we're going to use to comp your property.
Mike Swenson
There's a lot of great uses out there and yeah, for different investors, if you're not a fix and flipper, your products aren't necessarily in their sweet spot. For those people that love that strategy, you're absolutely a great go to person. And so sometimes I think investors or people considering investing get so hung up on picking the best strategy, the right strategy. And a lot of times it's about getting started and learning. And so if fix and flip is the way you want to go, you're obviously the right person to talk to to help walk them through those steps so that they can get that refi. And, yeah, like you said, that in an ideal scenario, you're just getting the money in getting it back, and then they go to another property and they can do multiple properties without having to put much cash into it. And that's the benefit of that strategy.
Kevin Amolsch
Yeah. And real estate flipping, it's not investing. We all call flippers investors. That's not investing. Right. What you do is investing. This is a job. It just happens to pay very well if you're good at it. I always say if you want to flip, flip, that helps me, right? Because that's my business. But my gosh, please go out and buy some rentals and try to acquire assets that actually are going to pay you down the road. I'm a big, big believer in that.
Mike Swenson
Talk a little bit. About 20 years ago, you got started in this business. You've obviously raised a lot of money along the way. How has being in real estate and investing in real estate impacted your life?
Kevin Amolsch
I love that question. I ask that question a lot, too, because it's pretty amazing, the responses you get, like, it's an emotional response a lot of times. First, I'm going to tell you this. I'm going to go climb Kilimanjara. I'm leaving tomorrow morning at 07:00. A.m., I would not be able to take two weeks off, no cell phone and go do a bucket list item if real estate wasn't part of my life. But that's. Only one thing now when we talk about if you're going to be successful, you need to have a strong why. In fact, I'll go so far to say, Mike, if you have a strong why strong enough why you can't fail. Like you literally cannot fail because the only way you fail is if you stop. If your why is strong enough, you'll never stop. So long story short, my dad took care of me. He was a single father and he took care of me, my brother and my sister all by himself. He gave up his entire life. Now, I already told you we didn't live like upper class, right. It was lower middle class and we didn't get everything we wanted. But he gave up everything for me. I would not be here what I'm doing without him, including his retirement. Then he got to retirement age and he's like the heck am I going to do? I have no money. I can't retire. So he's grinding and he's grinding. He's grinding. I was like my why is going to be to retire my dad and I'm going to do that by I'm going to buy him a house. I'm going to pay for free and clarity is not going to have any debt on it and he's going to be able to live. There no mortgage and I did it. I would not have been able to do that without real estate.
Mike Swenson
Awesome. You talked about the challenges, your first eviction being your hardest eviction and all that. And what I'm often reminded of and I do mindset coaching is would you expect to be able to go climb kilimanjaro and not have any hassles in your business? No. Right. So there is a trade off there. You are going to have to take on stress. You're going to have to take on hassles to be able to get that reward. However, you have the opportunity to get that reward because you're going through that work. So awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that story. That's great.
Mike Swenson
You and cheer you on along the.
Mike Swenson
Click on the store. You'll see the options there.
Mike Swenson
Click on the store.
Mike Swenson
That want to get to know more about Pine Financial, learn more about you, Kevin. How can they do so?
Kevin Amolsch
Yeah, two ways. We talked a little bit about the economy and what I think is going on. And we get the questions all the time. There's this going to be a 2008 again because a lot of us remember that. But what we don't remember is what happened after the savings and loan cris and leading up into the real estate crash in the 90s. So we call it a crash. We lost about 14% of the values in real estate in the early 1990s and it's almost exactly what we're going through right now. High inflation, high interest rates. Right. That's what we're experiencing right now. 2008 does not resemble this at all. These are very different, but it does resemble 1990s. So I did a report on that crash or that recession and what we're going through right now just so you can see the similarities and see what might be coming. So you can get that report for [email protected]. That's thepinereport.com or you can just reach out to know. We're in Minnesota. We do a lot of events out there. We love coming out there. We're in Colorado. Minnesota is our two primary markets. You could reach [email protected].
Mike Swenson
Thank you so much, Kevin, for coming on and sharing. Th and best of luck to you guys as you continue to grow.
