Eric Burns - Firefighter Turned Investor
Armed with a degree in Finance, Eric Burns joined the Cincinnati Fire Department. Serving for 17 years, and serving as a Lieutenant, he decided he wanted to build a side hustle for after his career was over. He got started in real estate investing in 2013. After working hard to build his own portfolio, he found out he just created another job for himself that was difficult to scale. He then turned to syndication and capital raising as a way to get out of the day to day and allow larger and experienced operators to handle that while he found investors. Today, Eric is the founder of Flowers Capital and has a passion for helping others achieve financial freedom with a focus on quality, diversification, and long-term success.
In this episode, you will be able to:
- Discover the secrets to scaling real estate investments passively and unlocking greater returns with reduced effort.
- Uncover how to transition from residential to commercial real estate and the potential for increased cash flow and diversification.
- Master the art of evaluating commercial real estate deals to identify lucrative opportunities and make informed investment decisions.
- Explore the exclusive benefits of investing in syndications and how it can amplify your real estate portfolio's performance.
- Overcome the challenges in real estate investing with proven strategies and insights from industry experts.
The key moments in this episode are:
00:00:00 - Getting Started in Real Estate Investing
00:05:28 - Transition to Passive Investing
00:08:53 - Learning Through Experience
00:13:35 - Transitioning to Commercial Real Estate
00:21:05 - Vetting Commercial Real Estate Deals
00:25:49 - Operator Track Record
00:27:04 - Benefits of Syndications
00:28:32 - Connecting with Eric
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Full transcript here:
Eric Burns
Buying that first rental property, like, I really, like, did not think about the part of, like, oh, yeah, now I gotta go rent this place. Like, I'm like, oh, well, I'll get it rented and this month. And then I'm like, well, I don't know how to market. I don't know how to vet tenants. Like, I had to figure all that out. And it was like school year renting season, so I had to do it in, like, the course of a month. But had I not left, if I had waited to be ready until I understood all that stuff, I probably would have waited too long, and I might not actually even have taken the leap that I'm so grateful that I did.
Mike Swenson
Welcome to the Real Freedom show, where we inspire you to pursue your passion to gain time and financial freedom through opportunities in real estate. I'm your host, Mike Swenson. Let's get some real freedom together. Hello, everybody. Welcome to Real Freedom Real Estate Leverage Freedom, where we talk about different ways that you can build time and financial freedom through opportunities in real estate. I'm your host, Mike Swenson. If you want to get started or learn more about real estate real estate investing, check out our website, Freedom Through Real Estate Dot com. That's Freedom Through Real Estate Dot com. We put all of our episodes, podcasts that we do, different articles really, to help guide you and pick a path to. To getting into real estate. I think there's a lot of great opportunity in real estate, whatever it might be. Everybody has different preferences and things that they want to dive deeper in, and so this is really a great place to get started. So today we've got Eric Burns here. Super excited for Eric to be able to share his story. He is the founder of Flowers Capital, based out of Cincinnati. And your background actually was firefighter in the Cincinnati Fire Department as a lieutenant for 17 years. So excited to hear kind of how that pairs with real estate and what you're doing now. So excited to have you on the show, Eric.
Eric Burns
Hey, Mike, thanks for having me on. Super excited. So, like you mentioned, my background was actually in firefighting for 17 years. 17 years. And I was actually. So my journey's taken me, ironically, from being a finance major in college. I got out of school. I joined the fire department. That went well. I did that for 17 years. And then during that time, I transitioned into real estate. So I'm kind of the way it played out. Interesting that it comes full circle and now I use my finance degree to underwrite all the time. But it was kind of during my Time as at the fire department, that I realized, you know, I had always done the side hustle. I had always had an entrepreneurial bug in me. And so I started out doing the side hustle. And what brought me to real estate was basically the guys at the kitchen table, you know, said, oh, man, I got a rental property. I thought, well, that sounds like a good idea. So I got into it as a side hustle and kind of just went down the rabbit hole. And I actually kind of dove into that first. It was a single family rental, student housing. So it was predictable vacancies, which was nice. So it was a little more manageable. My first property. So I got in there and the first property, I didn't know how to be a landlord. I didn't think about that part. I just did it. So a lot of my journey is just kind of learning along the way too. So. So that was going well. And then I switched and I started renovating duplexes. And then I'd hold them as rental properties. And that is kind of the. The last kind of pivot I made was going from renovating duplexes into commercial. And the reason why is it was a lot of sweat equity. It was a lot of time. And I still remember being in that rental, in that rental property, renovating. And I'm like covering drywall dust on. You know, I've been doing this for years at this point, you know, just slamming way more coffee than any normal human should be. And it just hit me like I'm only trading my time for money. And at that point, I knew I needed to scale. And I. I really do kind of try to be a lifelong learner. So I. I had already been somewhat exposed to commercial real estate, but I kind of just leaned into it, went down the rabbit hole and. And transitioned mainly to buy back my time and to be able to scale. And so that. That's why it became a good fit for me. And then from there, I was actually went and I started putting together G GPS for bigger deals. And we had a 40 unit in Dayton. We worked on it actually fell through in due diligence. But there was some fundamental information that. That had changed during the course of those few weeks that made it not a good deal. So heartbreakingly, I had to back out of that deal. So I was raising money for that deal. And my last pivot was this, like, so I'm raising money from my own deal. But by this time, I had networked, and in my network, through masterminds especially, I had access to these really great sponsors. And I'm like, well, they're getting better debt terms, they're getting better off market deals. They're asking me to come partner with them to raise money. Like why wouldn't I raise money for the better deal and the better operator? So it was just, it was just a perfect, kind of perfect storm for me to really niche down. And so that's kind of where I've landed is I go out and I take investors that we pull our money together and we'll invest with these sponsors and leverage their operations and really kind of take in and we get better, we get better terms by doing that as well.
Mike Swenson
So let's kind of dig, dig deeper into that and kind of walk through that process. So for you originally getting into real estate, like you had first mentioned, a side hustle was the thought there, like, hey, I know I'm going to be retiring as a firefight or I want something to do to keep my, to keep me occupied after I retire. Was that the additional income, building the equity kind of, what was that reason or that drive for, for getting into real estate at the beginning?
Eric Burns
Absolutely it was the additional income, the monthly income was appealing and also knowing I would be building up equity and hard assets and looking to retirement, which at that point was still a number of years off. But the vision at that time was not only would I be cash flowing monthly, by the end of it I'd have, you know, 30 duplexes and then I could retire financially free or whatever my plan was at that time. So it was both and, and I'm, and why and, and you know, we were kind of talking before the show off air about kind of how people get into real estate and the reason why. And I think a lot of it is lifestyle. So at that point in my, in my life, the residential rental properties were fitting my lifestyle and I had the time and I didn't mind being a landlord. And then when I hit that point where I felt like I wasn't going to be able to scale, then I realized like I needed a passive element, a passive investing element into my lifestyle to really, to really go out and achieve, like to really just have the freedom of time and the resources to go collect experiences and things like that. So, so yeah, coming from residential, like residential is really such a great product. Real estate in general is such a great product. And I think it comes down a lot of times it's just kind of like, you know, what, what's your W2 situation for one, what are your long term goals and you know, what kind of lifestyle are you interested in leading? Because if you're going into residential to build a portfolio that is a full time job, that is very much a full time job. Capital raising is a full time job. Now to make an investment as a limited partner, then that, then that's where my investments start getting to be passive. And that's kind of really, really where my shift in, my goals are now.
Mike Swenson
It's interesting to hear because it's, it's kind of a life cycle. I mean, having done, you know, podcasts now for four and a half years, like you, you kind of see a little bit of a life cycle of an investor and number one, giving you credit for, for taking. Because there's so many people that listen to these podcasts that it's like, oh, I'm just going to educate myself. And then they don't do anything. And the reality is, is you learn by doing. And for you, you learned what you liked and what you didn't like by doing it and feeling the pain points. And now you're sharing with, with people a way to kind of push the easy button and skip all this stuff that you learned. However, there was still a lot that you learned through that process because, yeah, I've, I've met with a lot of people that, you know, build and scale and realize, shoot, this is a lot more work than I thought and, or I don't like property management. I don't like having to, you know, coordinate repairs and renovations with contractors and all that kind of stuff. Like, that takes a lot of work. And so while it may sound glamorous to say I have X number of doors or X number of units, like it's a headache. And so would love to hear a little bit about kind of that pain point for you getting to the next step, which is like, hey, you can kind of skip all this if you want and, and do things a lot more easily.
Eric Burns
Yeah, yeah. And for anybod who's looking to get into residential in that way, I would never discourage them because what I've learned along the way by doing that has been just so valuable. You know, I walked out of my residential experience and into commercial being able to evaluate a business plan, being able to evaluate renovations, costs and budgets and things like that, understanding what the rent dynamics should look like and what vacancy, you know, so all the knowledge I rely on today was gained through that experience in residential. And for anybody that is sitting on the sideline, I do want to kind of touch on this point is just kind of My entrepreneurial belief in general is just go for it. There's never going to be a time that you ever feel like you're ready. Like, okay, I've got all my ducks in a row. I'm ready. Anytime you do something new, I feel like is going to be. There's always going to be that twin, that, that angst, you know, because you're stepping into something you haven't done before. But the sooner you can iterate, make adjustments and then iterate and make adjustments, the more, you know, you're, you're just moving, you know, it's cash flow, you're just moving money through faster and you're learning much quicker. And my steepest learning curves have always been on the job. Like buying that first rental property. Like, I really like, did not think about the part of like, oh yeah, now I got to go rent this place. Like, I'm like, oh, well, I'll get it rented and this month. And then I'm like, well, I don't know how to market. I don't know how to vet tenants. Like, I had to figure all that out. And it was like school year renting season, so I had to do it in like the course of a month. But had I not left, if I had waited to be ready until I understood all that stuff, I probably would have waited too long and I might not actually even have taken the leap that I'm so grateful that I did. So be cautious, be prepared. But, but when you leap, it's always going to be a little bit more before you're ready, I think.
Mike Swenson
And I know for me, what, what got me out of kind of the flipping type stuff was we had done a flip project and I had spent so many nights and weekends away from my family and the margins got thinner and thinner and we, we didn't have much left before we were going to sell. And then the week that we were going to list it, the furnace went out and so we had to put in a brand new furnace, you know, and that kind of ate up any last hope of profit after we were done. And it's like here, what I thought I was doing for my family ended up costing me time away from my family. And for me it was, I like doing the work on the properties and so I legitimately liked the work that I was doing to a fault. And so I was like, I've got to do something bigger to where I can't insert myself in there. So then that's how I kind of moved to the commercial side was okay. Better economies of scale. And Mike can't. Can't try to work on the units. So now we've got to go hire people. And so that was. It came from the pain point of doing it. But I wouldn't have necessarily known what asset classes I liked or didn't like or have preferences unless I had gone through it. And that's why you kind of have to learn from the school of hard knocks a little bit to get to where you want to go.
Eric Burns
Yeah, And I do miss the work. I do miss building things and renovating. There is a lot of enjoyment in that. But I'll tell you what was not enjoyable. You just sparked my memory. One of my renovations, I had a contractor and I thought that was going to be my way was that I'm going to start subbing out a lot more of this larger scale work. And it was great, except that I had the wrong contractor. So when I went to fire him, he stuck me with a $20,000 h vac bill that he had not been paying, that they wanted to put a lien on the property. And I'm going, well, now I got to write a $20,000 check. And this property is. This whole project is disturbed at this point. You know, will I walk away from this, even profitable? And then I was so done with renovations at that point. Now, the market being what it was at that time, it worked out really well because as soon as I paid that off, I finished it up and I was ready to sell and I bought it off market for way cheap. And it was just. I bought well. So I bought really well. And that saved my butt. But yeah, man, you start getting into like unexpected repairs or delays, holding costs and things like that. Like, that eats your profit and it's stressful. So those were some of my pain points when I transitioned as well. But, yeah, kind of a walk down memory lane because I. It sounds like you're like me, Mike, where you do enjoy the work and, you know, getting in there and getting dirty and watching things come together. But it also sounds like you're like me in that we kind of know in our hearts it's not the best use of our time either.
Mike Swenson
For sure.
Eric Burns
Yeah.
Mike Swenson
I mean, I remember before I was in real estate full time, we had kind of house hacked a few properties and it was like slow overtime. It wasn't, you know, like we'd buy it and quickly renovate it. But my boss at the time would always make fun of me, like, well, what project are you working on this weekend, Mike? And it's like, well, I'm doing this or I'm, you know, doing a closet or doing some landscaping and I really enjoyed the work. Well then all of a sudden three kids come along and that time just goes away. And from a, from an energy standpoint, like even if I had time to do that, like I want to spend, you know, I don't want to be tired all the time from nights and weekends and trying to do all that stuff and manage the family and my regular job and, and all that. But for sure, I think for people listening like you've got to get in to be able to learn these lessons. And that's why we want people to make the leap. Are you looking to get started or scale in real estate investing but don't know your next step? Are you overwhelmed thinking about finding deals, analyzing deals, doing due diligence and managing properties on top of it? Go ahead and push the easy button and invest with us. Real estate investing is what we do full time. We've done dozens of deals with hundreds of doors. We have the knowledge and experience to hand pick the best deals that most investors can't find. We've at large off market deals all the time where you can hopefully find returns and economies of scale that you just can't find on your own. The best thing is it's 100% passive to you for less capital than you put down trying to acquire a property on your own. Don't let this year go by where you don't make the leap, add to your portfolio or you just sit in analysis by paralysis. To find out more, visit freedomthroughrealestate.com and click on Invest. You can book a call and learn more there. So get to scaling your portfolio now with us by your side. Talk a little bit about yeah, the commercial side, you know, so you had done some smaller single family type stuff multifamily. What is it about commercial to you that's more exciting of investment or maybe something that's a better fit for you versus kind of that smaller stuff?
Eric Burns
So it's a better fit because it's scalable and it's a better fit for me because I get to delegate operations and I get to leverage the expertise of the sponsor. So in a great example, we just closed a deal in Phoenix with one of our Phoenix operators and for them the it was a 71 unit in northwest Phoenix Valley and for them it's a rinse and repeat operation. For me it is a grind. So I can confidently raise money and put it with with operators That I know, you know, their systems are buttoned up, their, you know, their, their performance is predictable, all these sorts of things. So for me it's a safer bet. And it's also a scalable, and it's also a scalable move. So that's what I like about and the neat thing about commercial too is you get all the benefits that, you know, write offs, depreciation, hard asset, all these great benefits of real estate that we love, but you can get them passively and that's really a product I love taking to investors too. As I say, hey, you know, my product really isn't necessarily a one off deal on basis, but my product really the way I consider it is just, you know, like basically like, hey, find, here's, here's a path to financial freedom. Here's a course of action you can continually take that will significantly increase your net worth and, and really get you to the goal of having the time and having the flexibility and freedom to go to baseball games and things like that with the kiddos that, that are, that's ultimately going to be a lot more rewarding than, than the yard work at the, at the rental property. Even though it's kind of like feels good in the moment.
Mike Swenson
Yeah. Just to, just to connect a couple of the dots for people that are like, hey, I've got money that I want to invest. Maybe I don't know what the benefits are of real estate or I don't really know what's a good deal, I don't know what's a good location. And so you've got these people that want to get into real estate but they don't necessarily know how. And that's where you kind of fill that gap because you've done it yourself, right? You, you know how to analyze deals, you know how to analyze markets, you know how to run the numbers and kind of see like what, what's a good deal? What's a good apartment to purchase? Where's a good area to purchase in? And so you're kind of leveraging your knowledge and expertise and your past history to be able to place money into more reliable opportunities versus you know, somebody's like, hey, I know I want to invest in real estate. And they run across one guy who maybe wasn't well vetted, maybe doesn't have great experience. And it's like, oh, I just put in 100 grand into this deal and then you lose it. And so for, for working with you, the benefit is it's like, oh, we've got this guy Eric who's done it, he understands things. And now I know that my money's in, in good hands. And in some cases, you know too, with these bigger deals, you get better returns than kind of regular investors into these deals. And so that's why they would want to work with you is you've got all that past expertise putting money into deals that you're vetting and partnering with great boots on the ground type people.
Eric Burns
Yeah, I, I appreciate the highlight too, but yeah, and the other thing that, that I, I tried to make it a benefit for me personally is the educating and growing with investors because I, I value educating myself constantly. But also I think that investor relations, a big, the biggest part of that for me is educating investors so they're comfortable with the deals they're getting into, they're comfortable with the business plan, they understand who the operators are, they understand what the deal should look like, what a, what conservative quote unquote, conservative underwriting should look like. It should be defensible. There should be reasons that we have that, you know, because underwriting is always kind of a give and take kind of an art, you know, but we need to have data that's, that's driving our, our fundamentals, you know, are rents increasing because it's a demand driven market in Phoenix. Yes, but is that, but can you just pencil in a 3% rent growth off the bat anywhere? Absolutely not. And these are things investors need to understand. And, and that's really where the, where the value of working with a capital raiser, whether it's me or anybody else, like really, really work with someone who wants to lean in and grow with you educationally and, and kind of just my underlying theory with that is that financial freedom should be fun. Like I don't want to get people into deals that they're going to be stressing and having a terrible experience because that completely defeats the purpose of passive income. The idea, you know, what we want, Mike, is really like we want distributions quarterly that we don't have to worry about. You know, we don't want to have to stress every quarter about, you know, the performance or the da, da, da, da. So yeah, to really, to really like get out there and connect and grow with investors. I encourage you all if you're, if you are looking into commercial, to get to know, you know, to get to know your capital raiser or get to know your sponsor and kind of let them educate you. And in the process you will learn a lot about their underlying theories about underwriting, but also just how they like to do business. And, and that whole investment, that whole five year, that whole five year hold is going to be a much more enjoyable experience for you, which is what we want.
Mike Swenson
So talk a little bit about, you know, you, somebody that's helping people place capital into deals. You know, obviously it's who's operating the deal. You know, you'd mentioned kind of the operator. So who's the one running the boots on the ground, executing on the strategy and then two kind of the locations. Right. These, these deals could be anywhere. So talk about kind of what you're thinking about as, as I've got, you know, I'm an investor. Hey Eric, I want to put my money into a deal that you think is a great deal. How do you kind of vet out some of these people to, to say, hey, this is a great opportunity. This 71 unit in Phoenix is awesome versus another deal in another state.
Eric Burns
So when, when I'm vetting the deal itself, I like to see conservative business plans and really strong underwriting. So Phoenix for example, we had a 0% year one rent growth that positioned us really well for now. We've already surpassed that going in. But that positions our underwriting really well for the rest of the five years. So that would be an example of a strong business plan, a strong dynamic of the business plan. Conservative rent, gross, that would be another one. There's a lot of some other metrics that we look at that we like to see the strength of the deal and really evaluate the business plan. But I actually start top, bottom. So when I'm, when I'm looking at deals, it's, they've come from sponsors that I've, that I've already known and, and the sponsors I work with, I, I have most generally known them organically through masterminds. One's a former former multifamily coach that I've had. He does really great deals in my area. A lot of my operators work in Phoenix, some in Texas and things like that. So they're, they're inherently working in great markets and they're, and they're operating to the point to a high level where they are like the big players in these markets. So I'm gaining access to these high barrier to entry markets by, by partnering with them. And then, and then when I'm evaluating the market, what I'll look at is a lot of it is employer growth. And right now a big thing that we need to be paying attention to as investors is what are the new builds coming on? What's future demand going to look like what are absorption rates? So absorption rates have been really high just in general. And what I've been hearing and the feeling I'm getting right now is that a lot of people, it's been cost prohibitive to, to start new builds for a lot of people. So when all these units are coming online, what we're doing in some of these bigger markets is hitting peak supply. So is demand outpacing that supply and then projecting three years into the future when some of these new builds are going to be coming up back up online and being rented up an existing apartment will take somewhat of a hit. But if it's a high growth market, if it's a high demand market, if there's employers moving in, that that demand for rental property and is going to outpace the units coming online. And so that is one thing that I really like to make sure that what's the deal look like now that we're buying it? Because we're probably buying it at a 30% discount a lot of times right now. Right now is a great time to buy transaction volumes really, really low. So people are having a hard time getting the deals, but when we're getting them, we're getting them at deep discounts as well from sometimes distressed sellers or sometimes it makes sense to their investors to cut and run a little early and give them a little less than projected, but still give them a nice return, even if it's less than the projection. You know, we all know kind of commercials hit with those huge interest rates spike so quickly too. A lot of operators had hit some tough times. And, and from the operator point of view, you want to know how they navigated those tough times. And, and just because they may have hit a snag isn't a deal breaker, but how they handle it can be a deal breaker. So really just understanding how they're handling hard times, if they've hit hard times. A lot of my operators have weathered this storm perfectly and now they are positioned to really, really do well. As we're kind of entering a new market cycle, we'll be ramping up. And so they're well positioned to really take advantage of these great deals and their track record showing that they didn't get themselves jammed up when they could have by chasing high returns. And so to come in with that level of confidence really makes me feel good when I'm taking other people's money. And a lot of times it's family money to my mother, for example, just got in this last deal. So there's a lot of stewardship that comes with it. So for my own personal peace of mind, I like to start at the sponsor top. Start at the top with the sponsor. The markets are the markets. They always operate in great markets. But to make sure those economic drivers are what they should be to justify the underwriting. And from there we can really dial in on the discussion of what's the business plan look like and do we really believe that this is going to be an execution of all business plan? And so that's kind of how I bet deals going in.
Mike Swenson
Yeah, it's certainly a high level of sophistication compared to, you know, thinking when, when you got your start, it was, hey, I found this, you know, single family home or this duplex because it's in my neighborhood or near where I work or something like that. And now you're not that Cincinnati's a bad place to invest, but now you're looking at larger macro level type analytics of, you know, where's the population moving and what's the economy look like. And so for somebody to invest in a deal, there's a high level of sophistication that you're providing for people through your knowledge and experience that you've gained through all the stuff that you've done before. And so it's just, I love syndications. You know, we, we do our own because it's just, it's a great opportunity for people to get in with limited barriers, limited work, and to be able to hopefully experience great returns that it's something they, they couldn't find on their own or want to manage on their own. And now they get to take advantage of a great opportunity in Arizona because of a relationship with you, somebody who's already put in the work done that knows how to understand and recognize great deals.
Eric Burns
Yeah, and, and you touched on the barriers to entry as well. Like, you know, you can't just necessarily go out and buy 71 units. I mean, you just cannot do it. I mean, I mean, some people can, but for most of us getting started in real estate investing, you know, I actually wrote an article, what does a $50,000 down payment buy you versus a $50,000 limited partnership. And kind of my thought at this point in my career is that the 50 grand can buy you a job or it can buy you a percentage in an apartment building that you don't even have to run. But that is one of the great things, like you said, that syndications offer is elimination of those barriers to entry in some of these really great markets and elimination the barriers of entry to really great deals as well, because you're also leveraging broker relationships that most of us would not have.
Mike Swenson
Well, thank you Eric so much for coming on and sharing your story. For people that want to reach out to you and learn more and connect with you, how can they do that?
Eric Burns
Yeah, outside of LinkedIn, just go to flowerscapital.com you'll see an ebook at the top and it just gives you kind of 12 tips of pitfalls to avoid in your next real estate deal.
Mike Swenson
Well, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story, and best of luck to you as you continue to find your next deal.
